Comments on: Much Ado About Europe: Scenarios for an Independent Scotland https://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/referendum/much-ado-about-europe-scenarios-for-an-independent-scotland/ Informing the Debate Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:59:20 +0000 hourly 1 By: Much Ado About Europe: Scenarios for an Independent Scotland | Mr. Henderson's Geography | Scoop.it https://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/referendum/much-ado-about-europe-scenarios-for-an-independent-scotland/#comment-17 Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:59:20 +0000 http://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/referendum/?p=52#comment-17 […] Dr. Daniel Kenealy weighs in on the debate about Scotland’s status within the European Union should Scotland vote for independence.  […]

]]>
By: Charles Patrick O'Brien https://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/referendum/much-ado-about-europe-scenarios-for-an-independent-scotland/#comment-15 Wed, 23 Jan 2013 11:25:33 +0000 http://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/referendum/?p=52#comment-15 I agree with almost all.but being a simple man I would put it in the simplest of terms,the UK is union that signed on behalf of member countries (Scotland and England) to join a larger union called EEC grew to EU,and thus we have the same rights and privileges,of the whole,also the same responsibilities ,if anyone says that we lose all treaties then the same is said for the other member of this smaller union that is England,we either have the same or both start from scratch.I do wonder about the honesty of the media both written and broadcasted,will they be able to see past their allegiance to their respective political parties? I think not,I don’t think the BBC sees Scotland as country more of a region,and as our main “press” is owned by persons outwith Scotland they too have a separate agenda,this is what must be overcome so that the electorate can have an informed choice,for it will always be YES for independence,for I see that this UK has went well past the “sell by date”

]]>
By: David MacVicar https://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/referendum/much-ado-about-europe-scenarios-for-an-independent-scotland/#comment-14 Tue, 22 Jan 2013 23:23:10 +0000 http://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/referendum/?p=52#comment-14 A great article and highlights many factors that should be discussed in detail and in public prior to the vote. Unfortunately it is unlikely that the British media will be a vehicle for greater preparedness, so the more articles like this the better.

However as JM states above, you cannot evaluate the Scottish and EU positions and the likely negotiations while completely ignoring that treaties of Union and ignoring therefore that the UK as a State will no longer exist either (I presume that the name may stay the same but everything else is ‘open bar’).

Firstly, impacts to what would then be the remaining Kingdom, aka ‘rump’ UK, appears to be a taboo subject. Scotland is not leaving the UK it is ending the treaty that makes the UK exist, we would be untreating. The UK parrot would be deceased, no more, null and void, surely? As soon we say YES the UK parliament logically and essentially reverts to the English parliament, as only the Scottish Parliament would be a wholly elected body representing the Scottish public. I guess the Scottish constituency members of the UK cabinet would have to resign.

Can the rest of the UK be considered as a full status quo, clearly it cannot? However, anyone trusting in BBC coverage for answers or even questions would currently conclude that Blighty will continue on as if nothing had happened and Scotland will have a lot of work to do getting on board the global bus. This just gives weight to the perception that UK =(is equivalent to) England = Britain, an entirely Anglocentic perception.

Therefore, it seems practical to me that the remainder of the former UK would essentially have to continue as part of the EU but not as the UK as it currently stands. The new entity would also be required to renegotiate all existing agreements and exclusions and level of representation. I would further argue that this adds weight to Scotland to be treated in the same way as England: I have not bought into the idea that only one country in our Unitary State gets to keep all treaties signed up on its citizens behalf while the other gets none.

I thought we were currently in the UK “together” or is that just another great deception?

]]>
By: John MacKinnon https://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/referendum/much-ado-about-europe-scenarios-for-an-independent-scotland/#comment-13 Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:57:09 +0000 http://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/referendum/?p=52#comment-13 As the United Kingdom is a joint venture of Scotland and England (with Wales and N. Ireland attached as quasi-states {but not Kingdoms} to [I presume -] England and the UK respectively), if the union is dissolved both Scotland and England are elevated/reduced (take your pick) to a common state with regard to the EU, and neither (or both) are successor states. I can’t see how any other conclusion can be justified. Sorry about all the parentheses.

]]>
By: Peter A Bell https://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/referendum/much-ado-about-europe-scenarios-for-an-independent-scotland/#comment-12 Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:45:28 +0000 http://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/referendum/?p=52#comment-12 A succint and considered contribution from Dr. Kenealy which seems broadly supportive of the view taken by the Scottish Government on the issue of post-independence Scotland’s status vis-à-vis the European Union. I would take issue with only point, and that is the claim that the SNP changed its position in late 2012. I would suggest that this was less a change than a clarification. It was surely self-evident that some negotiation with the EU would be occasioned by Scotland leaving the EU – both in relation to the precise details of Scotland’s status and that of the remainder of the UK (rUK). Much in the same way that everybody knew that Trident would not vanish from Scottish territory overnight, but Angus Robertson nonetheless felt it advisable to spell this out in the resolution carried by the SNP Conference last year.

On the matter of state-centric versus citizen-centric perspectives I would offer the thought that, while there is certainly a substantive difference between the two, both can be addressed with the pragmatism Dr Kenealy acknowledges as characterising the EU’s approach to such issues.

The approach from a citizen-centric perspective has been thoroughly rehearsed by the SNP and others. Dr Kenealy suggests that this may not be sufficient on its own. Which would seem to imply that the requirements of the Barosso/UK Government state-centric approach must also be satisfied to some minimum extent.

I would suggest that this might be achieved by the EU taking the (pragmatic) view that all the treaties which define EU membership were signed on Scotland’s behalf by the UK. This approach only requires that the EU accept the premise that the UK is a voluntary union of two nations with a single parliament and government acting on behalf of both. An appreciation of the nature of the union which the UK Government would find it very difficult to dispute.

This approach provides the continuity that will surely be a priority for the EU. And it resolves another issue that is seldom spoken of. If, as is now generally accepted, the newly independent Scotland would continue as a member of the EU with only relatively minor details to be settled by negotiation, what would be the basis of this membership? What would be the starting point for negotiations?

What else could it be but the status quo of existing treaties? If those treaties no longer apply then Scotland cannot be a member and must be treated as an accession state. And if they do apply, having been signed on Scotland’s behalf by the UK, then they cannot be arbitrarily and unilaterally altered prior to the very negotiations that are presumed necessary.

Bearing in mind that it is a political issue rather than a matter of law, there seem to be two incontestable points that are relevant to this discussion. From a citizen-centric perspective there is no ready process by which Scotland can be expelled from the EU. From a state-centric perspective there is no conceivable way Scotland can continue to be a member of the EU without existing treaties remaining in place.

]]>
By: Much Ado About Europe: Scenarios for an Independent Scotland | Referendum 2014 | Scoop.it https://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/referendum/much-ado-about-europe-scenarios-for-an-independent-scotland/#comment-11 Tue, 22 Jan 2013 10:57:47 +0000 http://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/referendum/?p=52#comment-11 […] Dr. Daniel Kenealy weighs in on the debate about Scotland’s status within the European Union should Scotland vote for independence.  […]

]]>